More on Mode...

I concur with drock on most of what he said regarding the definition of "baptism". I have read similar things about how that word got left in the King James. It is often funny to me how "sprinklers" will try to get around the fact that the greek word means to immerse and at the very least it can mean "to put into or cover", but this to would imply a complete covering or soaking with water. The presbyterian form is hardly that. In fact, you really can't tell that any water has been put on the person.

They will point to a few verses in the new testament that refer to "baptism" in a figurative sense in the Old Testament such as "the israelites were baptized in the Red Sea"( 1 cor 10:2) or "Noah was baptized in the flood"( 1 pet 3:20-21). They would say that the israelites and Noah in these verses weren't immersed, it in fact was the pagans (the egyptians and other inhabitants of earth) that were covered in water. From this they deduce that immersion in scripture was actually a symbol of judgement.

Besides this being exegetical hogwash it is also clear from didactic passages in scripture and from historical evidence alone that baptism was always by immersion. Jews were used to being baptized themselves. In fact most jews had baptismal pools in their houses. They used these to wash themselves ceremonially. If you will read Exodus 40 you will see that the priests were required to take baths before they could enter the tabernacle to make sacrifices. Also in John 2:24-27 the pharisees ask John why he was baptizing since he was neither Christ nor a prophet. This question alone reveals that the jews understood the symbolism of baptism and that is represented a cleansing and washing away of sins.

Finally, the most practical argument for immersion or complete covering would be that if you asked any sensible human being to was the dishes, they wouldn't just sprinkle them, they would soak them in water and possibly, oh my gosh, no they wouldn't..., yes, they would immerse them in a sink full of water. I don't want to eat off of dishes that have been baptized by a presbyterian!

Oh yeah, i might take one exception to what drock said. Although he might have been using a little sarcasm. I do think baptism is slightly more than a mere suggestion. It is an act of obedience. I am sure you would agree drock. No, it is definitely not required (e.g. thief on the cross) for salvation. But, when the jews asked Peter what they were to do in response to his first sermon in acts, he told them to Repemt and be Baptized (acts 2). Baptism is also the first thing Paul did once ananias healed him. So, baptism like good works is extremely important and obedience to any of God's commands certainly pleases our father and as we do them we store up treasures in Heaven.

Eric's Retreat

Hey Everyone,
I was just wondering if anyone else was planning on going to Eric's retreat in G'ville. Lindsay and I were planning on going. The topic is "Heaven". It ought to be fun and a good time to catch up with everybody.

Hope to see everybody there!

Michael


P.S. Nate- I have some more comments on mode. Look for them in the next couple of days.

Thanks J.Gray and Mikey T.

Both of you have offered great insight into this raging debate. I have always been against pedobaptism because scripture does not sufficiently back it up (IMO). I know presbyterians, and other denominations use a verse or 2 in scrpture to offer thier case for pedobaptism. I have talked to other members of our congregation about the issue, and some don't have a problem with it, while others do have a problem with it........but think sprinkling is OK, or immersion. They see baptism being for the believer, but that the way it is administered (immersion or sprinkling) makes no difference. They started making some pretty strong arguments for both, and I think the main reason is what if someone is on thier deathbed, who becomes a believer, and wishes for baptism. Obviously they can't be immersed. They gave other situations like that, and I tend to see their point. Melissa and I have elected to have our children, when they become believers, be immersed, but the pastor said it can't be a churchwide baptism since they don't want to confuse thier other congreagational members. I told him I understand, and we both respect each other's opinions in the matter. He said that he would, as long as his presbytery continues to allow it, baptize both ways (both immersion and sprinkling). He did inform me, however, that if I was ever to be nominated as an elder, I would be unable to be one if I didn't hold to pedobaptism. I told him that was fine, lol. More thoughts on the issue if you guys so choose to offer them up. I am definitley looking into both books that J.Gray and Mikey T. reccommended, and of course studying the scriptures in these matters. I am not sold on pedobaptism, but I am not sure yet about administering baptism. Does it really make a difference if we sprinkle the believer or dunk them under water? Isn't it all about the act of obedience and the circumcision of the heart, as Mikey T. so eloquently said in a comment? You guys are all awesome and encouraging, and I am glad I have this outlet to discussw the "deeper things of Christ" with you fine gentleman. Oh year Mikey, I am just now studying up on the Federal Vision thing. I will get back to you on that.

Hey Fellas

I finally figured out why I couldn't post onthe blogger. My computer is dumb. So, Anyway, I have been keeping up with Posts, and lots of interesting topics have been discussed. Unfortunately, I haven't been keeping up with current reformed issues, althouh I did take a look at the site J.P. put up in his recent post. That kids is a loser, and I tend to agree with J.P., he really isn't worth my time. Anyway, I will try and be a more productive participant in this blogspot. Oh, Mikey T., got a question for you. What is your stance on pedobaptism? Melissa and I are joining a PCA church this Sunday, and we have had at length discussions with the pastor about it. Just curious if you had similiar talks with your pastor, his stance on it, your stance on it, anybody else's stance on it and the like. Also, is there a diffence whether you are sprinkled or emersed (i think that is the correct spelling) under water for baptism? Be interesting to hear everyone's thoughts on either topic.

Calvinist-haters in the SBC

We all know that there the SBC is not the friendliest place for Calvinists. Let's be honest, you can't go to a Pastor's Conference or Convention without Calvinists getting bashed in some way, shape, or form.

But there is one guy on the net that takes it to another level......ludicrous level!

He goes by the name "Charles", but he is just another coward hiding behind a screenname.

Here is his site. Caution: You may want to remove any object that you don't want to break in a fit of rage.

BTW, here's a preview of some subjects you will find at this idiot's blog:
Al Mohler the cause for decline in baptisms in he SBC.
Referring to Calvinism as the "born again before faith heresy".
Trashing of anything Southern Seminary...including Mohler, the profs, the students, the recent alumni, etc.
Denying Spurgeon was a Calvinist.

Enjoy! :)

Rantings and Ravings

I think we should change the name to "Mike and JP's Blog". Come on guys what happen to the days when we would all just sit around and chat? Usually the conversation revolved around God or Benny Hinn. I prefer God, but would settle for Benny at this point.

So far Jp and I have been the only ones posting anything along the lines of theology. What's wrong with you all. I mean I enjoy "finding out what is going on in everybodies life" but we have done that already. we are men we get that kind of stuff over with quick and get to the good stuff as fast as possible.

Oh yeah, i forgot we're all grown up now, we can't do that kind of stuff anymore (we've been neutered by our wives). Jp and eric, i guess we can't stand in our doors until three in the morning anymore because that is not what big boys do.

Ok, enough of the cynicism. to be serious...

I posted something about Federal Vision a few weeks ago and no one except jp has responded. For those of you who don't know about this topic it is HUGE in the pca and other major reformed circles. These people, including Doug Wilson and some of his friends (which I am sure you are familiar with) are trying to redefine many central doctrines of Christianity including Justification, Covenant, and Ecclesiology.
i realize all of you may not know anything about this topic but i thought that at least somebody else might be curious and do a little research to find out something about it.

Why did we start this blog?

Ok, sorry for the gentle nut kicking. I just really enjoyed many of those long and short discussions with every one of you back in college and i thought we might be able to continue that with JP's brilliant idea.
I love each of you guys. The greatest growth in my Christian life occured in the four years spent at UF and God used each of you in that time period, mostly through the discussions and bible study we all had. I know ya'll are busy, so are JP and I. We aren't asking for miny dissertations like this one. Just enough to give us something to chew on.

Ok, Austin- JP will be back in a few days to console everyone after I unloaded on ya'll.

New Baptist Trend = COMMUNITY

I have now heard this word more times in the past 48 hours than I ever thought I would. If you are still associated with a SBC church, you might have heard the following phrases:
"doing life together"
"small group"
"authentic community"
Well, I am fed up with this garbage. It seems pastors have figured out something about the Mega-Church model--it is failing. 15,000+ people, and NO DIFFERENCE in any of their lives. So how do you fix this? Not by repenting and returning to teaching the Word; not by honoring the whole counsel of God and worshiping all His attributes. No, you fix this by coming up with a new way for people to interact--you come up with this concept of COMMUNITY.

You talk about the NT Church, you talk about how 'real' they were in the book of Acts, and you determine the only difference between us and them is COMMUNITY. They 'were doing life together' is the catch-phrase.

What do you think? Why this angle? What will this accomplish?
Questions? Comments? Cheap shots?